Leo got it right

[beefy]

When one is in the military, one may engage in acts which are quite contrary to Jesus' words.


When Jesus says, "do good to those who hate you," how can one kill someone else and consider it to be doing them any good?


When Jesus says, "love your enemies," how can one love their enemy as they rip out their guts with a bayonet?


Some people who kill other people in their military occupation, really need to think about what they are doing.


These people who kill in the military make thousands of mothers childless, children fatherless, and countless untold numbers of grieving widows. There is nothing honorable about that. That is what these people are trained to do. Trained to kill. They bring pain, grief, and suffering to those caught in their wake, both the guilty and the innocent. And they grieve me as well.


In short, what I have to say is this. Jesus reached out to the fatherless and widows. The Bible says to defend the cause of the fatherless and the widow. The people in the military do not do that. They only compound the problem, by creating more fatherless children and more widows. These people who kill in the military and claim to follow Christ merely make more work for the following Christians who are out there reaching out to the families of all the insurgents and "terrorists" and innocent bystanders that the other "Christians" have killed.


To be Christian means to be Christ-like. There is nothing Christ-like about taking another's life just to save your own. Is their life worth less than the life of your family? Are they not just as loved by God as you? Is their life worth less than your country? Is their life worth less than your freedom?


No. God loves us, all of us. God forgave us when we deserved death. He took away the punishment for our transgressions. If we do not forgive our own transgressors in the same way, how then can we represent God's love to the world?


The Bible says to imitate the life of Christ here on earth, and Christ never killed those who threatened His safety and the safety of His disciples. They ended up dead too.


But what did they say? "To live is Christ and to die is gain." Death is gain, my friend.


In the words of the great Christian Leo Tolstoy, who was a lieutenant in the Russian army at one time...


"We must say that by whatever name people may call murder - murder always remains murder and a criminal and shameful thing.


With regard to those who voluntarily choose a military career, I would propose to state clearly and definitely that not withstanding all the pomp, glitter, and general approval with which it is surrounded, it is a criminal and shameful activity; and that the higher the position a man holds in the military profession the more criminal and shameful his occupation."


And a truly shameful occupation it is. Worthy to be rebuked and admonished.


Unless you wish to argue that you can show love to an enemy by blowing their head off, then you cannot defend the killing of others. Jesus did not make an exception to the command, "Love your enemy."


And neither did Paul. Let's look at what he said, immediately after Romans 13:1-7


"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13:8-10


You see? Love is the fulfilling of the law. Jesus established that we are to love our neighbor, and our enemies are our neighbors too, as evidenced when he said, "Love your enemy, do good to those who hate you."


If "love worketh no ill to his neighbor," then love certainly cannot kill his neighbor (aka enemy). Hitler's actions worked ill to his neighbors. Killing other people is working ill to them. Therefore it is against God's law, for "love is the fulfilling of the law." You cannot kill somone out of love. Therefore it does not fulfill the law. For "Love is the fulfilling of the law."


Another thing. Did you know that God is "kind unto the evil and the unthankful?" We are commanded to be just like Him.


"But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." Luke 6:35


"Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." Luke 6:36


We are supposed to forgive the trespasses of others, every time, up to 77 times and beyond.


"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 14:15


If we do not forgive others, God will not forgive us. And we all have sinned. The wages of sin is death. When God forgives us, he takes away our punishment of eternal death. So too are we to forgive others, and take away their punishment that they so justly deserve, so that they will see the mercy of God. For we are to be as merciful as God is merciful.


"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Matthew 18:21-22


If we bomb and shoot and stab after only one trespass against us, instead of forgiving, how then shall we be able to forgive seventy-seven times? Out transgressor will be dead after the first trespass, and we will not have shown forgiveness at all!


"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Matthew 25:40


I think we can all agree that terrorists, rapists, and murderers are among the "least of these" that Jesus speaks of.


They are certainly not among "the greatest of these," now are they?


After all, they are in jail, and need to be visited. When we show love to these people, we are showing love to Christ. If we condemn these people, we are condemning Christ. If we kill these people, we are killing Christ!


"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." matthew 25:45


If we do not show love to these people, we do not show love to Christ. They are the "least of these," and we must show love to them, out of love for Christ.


If you or any other Christian does not heed these clear commands that Jesus gave, you will have disobeyed Him. Only those that love Him will obey these commands.


"If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:5

[resecoy]

I was in the Anerican military for 20 years and I don't agree with your opinion. I can love my enemies and still represent the armed forces of the land I also love.

Jesus never rebuked the centurion or told him to quit serving in the military.

Matthew 8:13 (http://www.hidingplace.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=8&verse=13&version=9&context=verse)
And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

I didn't hate the Vietnamese or the Iraqis but because I answered my country's call, I was honor bound to do my duty and carry out my orders.

The Isrealites were involved in war and battle and are to this day continuing to practice warfare. The Bible said there would be wars and rumors of war.

I am not a war monger neither are the members of the American military. We feel the pain of causing death and don't take it lightly but it isn't the soldier that provokes war, it comes from governments and as the Bible says we are to submit to those who govern us.

Maybe you should aim your efforts at congressmen and the executive branch of our government.

By the way the military performs any number of humanitarian, nation building and security functions that has nothing to do with blowing off the head of our enemies or hating anyone.

"He who is without sin let him cast the first stone?"

But I agree. If we as a country want to stop practicing war then it is time to repent of our sins, turn back to GOD and allow the wisdom and direction of the Holy Spirit to reign free.
:godbless:

[beefy]

It's not abut representing your country. It is about representing Jesus. He said love your enemy. Are you loving your enemy if you are killing them?

And there are a great many good things that the military does for people. But killing is not one of them.

Oh, and about that centurian. . .

From "A Practical Christian pacifism"
This involves understanding the context of the words of Jesus, which, in this instance, focused on the great faith of the centurian who believed that his servant (slave) could be healed with a single word from Jesus. And what great faith that is.

Your argument, as I understand it, is that if soldiery was so bad, then how come he didn't tell the centurian to quit being a soldier?

"And a centurion's slave, who was highly regarded by him, was sick and about to die. When he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders asking Him to come and save the life of his slave. . . "

The centurion says to Jesus: ". . . I did not even consider myself worthy to come to You, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. . . "

". . . Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled at him, and turned and said to the crowd that was following Him, "I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such great faith. " When those who had been sent returned to the house, they found the slave in good health. " Matthew 8:5-10

There is a different issue which this passage could be appealled to by using the same arguement: if slavery was so bad, why didn't Jesus tell the centurion to quit owning slaves?

Such a point may seem silly beyond the need to consider to modern sensibilities, but such arguements were exactly the kinds used to defend slavery as little as a century ago.

The New Testament is filled with references to Christian slaves and slavery which doesn't paint it in a particularily negative light (Philippians 4:22, Ephesians 6:5-9, Colossians 3:22-4:1). There is even a whole book of the New Testament, Paul's Epistle to Philemon, which is giving advice to a Christian slaveowner and the slave. Paul has advice on fulfilling the duty of slaves, permitting even Christians to have slaves and going on to say that to even debate the slavery issue is pointless quarrelling, as in this quote from the First Epistle to Timothy.

But Paul later wrote, correcting his error concerning slavery, in Galatians 3. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. "

Ultimately, the whole situation is less about the centurion than it is a lesson for us. This is the extravagance of God's grace: that even a slave-owning soldier from an oppressive and occupying military superpower (Rome) can know God's grace. How easy would it have been for Jesus and the Hebrews to tell the centurion to shove off because he's their oppressor. Yet they did not. . . God's grace is for all people, even our enemies.

People saw through this pro-slavery argument in the past. And I see through your pro-soldiery argument today, in the present. You are unknowingly using the same logic that people used to justify slavery. Please, don't do it. It is intellectually dishonest to use that type of logic.

One of these commands concerning their actions of soldiers was "Do violence to no man."

Let's delve deeper into the original meaning of this command when given to the Roman soldiers by John the Baptist.

"And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." Luke 3:14 King James Version

The word here used for either violence or extort is “diaseiō” and most lexicons define it:
1. to shake thoroughly
2. to make to tremble
3. to terrify
4. to agitate
5. to extort from one by intimidation money or other property

Notice that the entire system of war, and those participating, is about constantly putting others in fear. Terrifying people is something that war is perpetually in the business of doing. If nothing else is agitating to a people, war is most certainly agitating. If anything is gained by war, surely money, and that by intimidation and conquest. If anyone can kill a man in combat, then surely the combatants get shaken thorughly from time to time. If anything makes one tremble, it is war, and the drums and soldiers of war, that do so.

Everything about war and its participants breaks this command, "Do violence to no man."


The early church, started by Jesus' very own disciples, did not agree with you.

The early Christian community understood Jesus’ commands to prohibit the bearing of arms. Christians refused to join the military, even though the Roman army of the period was as much a police force as a conquering army. Those who converted to Christianity while in military service were instructed to refrain from killing, to pray for forgiveness for past acts of violence, and to seek release from their military obligations. A striking example of the pervasiveness of pacifism in the early church is the fact that Tertullian and Origen—church fathers who stood at opposite poles regarding the relation of faith to philosophical reasoning—each wrote a tract supporting Christians’ refusal to join the military.

It wasn't until St. Augustine came around with his "Just War Theory" that many Christians changed their stance. This also happened to be the time when Christians got their first taste of political power, around the time when emperor Constantine converted to Christianity.


"We who formerly murdered one another now refrain from making war even upon our enemies." Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.176.

"I do not wish to be a king. I am not anxious to be rich. I decline military command". Tatian (c. 160, E), 2.69.

"These people [i.e. the Christians] formed their swords and war-lances into plowshares...so now they are unaccustomed to fighting. When they are struck, they offer also the other cheek." Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.512.

"Let our seals be either a dove, a fish, or a ship....We are not to draw an outline of ... a sword or a bow, since we follow peace." Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.286.

"The Christian does no harm even to his enemy." Tertullian

"Is it lawful to make an occupation of the sword when the Lord proclaims that he who uses the sword will perish by the sword? Will the son of peace take part in the battle when it does not become him even to sue at law?" Tertullian

"So the more anyone excels in godliness, the more effective the help is that he renders to kings. This is a greater help than what is given by soldiers who go forth to fight and kill as many of the enemy as they can." Origen

"Our prayers defeat all demons who stir up war. . . Accordingly, in this way, we are much more helpful to the kings than those who go into the field to fight for them." Origen

"And murder - which is admitted to be a crime in the case of an individual - is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not because they are guiltless- but because the cruelty is perpetrated on a grand scale!" Cyprian

"Why would [the just man] carry on war and mix himself with the passions of others when his mind is engaged in perpetual peace with men?" Lactantius

"A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate who wears the purple must resign or be rejected. If an applicant or a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected." recorded by Hyppolytus.

First off, God physically commanded people to fight wars in the Old Testament. He no longer commands people to fight wars. The words "Old Testament" literally means "Old Covenant." Look it up in the dictionary for proof. "Testament" is synonymous with "Covenant."

Although God (Jesus) does remain the "same yesterday, today, and forever," Hebrews 13:8, His commands to His people have changed over time.
What many choose to cite in order to justify war are the Jewish wars of the Old Testament . What is wrong with this approach is that the ancient Israelites were men living under the Old Covenant.

Under this Old Covenant, the Jews were permitted to own slaves, kill women and children, and all sorts of terrible atrocities to mankind. But God gave them permission to do so, and He physically spoke to them on many occassions.

Under the New Covenant, however, the rules have changed, and the Old Covenant has been made obsolete.

"But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. " Hebrews 8:6

The New Covenant is Better Than the Old

"7For if the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one. 8But God found something wrong with his people when he said,

“Look! The days are coming, declares the Lord,when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors at the timewhen I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. Because they did not remain loyal to my covenant,I ignored them, declares the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11Never again will everyone teach his neighbor
or his brother by saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because all of them will know me,
from the least important to the most important.
12For I will be merciful regarding their wrong deeds,
and I will never again remember their sins. ”

13In speaking of a “new” covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. "Hebrews 8:7-13

In the King James version,it says the Old Covenant has aged and "vanished away. "

The Old Testament doctrine has been made obsolete,including the "eye for an eye” doctrine..

“You have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say to you, that ye resist not evil.” Matthew 5:38-39

Don't confuse the ancient Jews with Christians.The Jews were not Christians, thus they followed the Old Covenant. Jesus was not even born yet, therefore the Jews could not possibly be Christians.

That is what the "Old Testament" means, "Old Covenant. "

Christians follow the "New Testament", which means "New Covenant. " You follow the New Covenant.

Don't get me wrong though. In the New Covenant, Jesus still upheld the Ten Commandments, on numerous occassions. But He said the greatest commandment was to love God, and to love your neighbor. The terrorists are our neighbors too, as evidenced when Jesus said "Love your enemy. "

the Bible says we are to submit to those who govern us.

So, if Hitler tells you to kill the Jews, should you do it? His government was just as ordained of God as the American government. Believe it or not, citing Romans 13 was exactly the verse Hitler used to get Christians to join the Nazi army. Look it up.

Paul wrote "submit to governing authorities" while he was in jail. Obviously he was not obeying the authorities blindly. When it came down to it, the disciples said, "We obey God rather than man." What Paul meant was not to revolt against authorities, as the Jews wanted to do at the time. He let them arrest him peacefully, just as Jesus did.

For we are Christians, disciples of Christ, and our weapons are not carnal...

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled." 2 Corithians 10:3-6

We do not fight against flesh and blood:

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12

[resecoy]

Okay I can see the point.
So am I allowed by the Bible to defend myself? I mean physically, bodily. I understand spiritual warfare, putting on the armor and such.
But what if I walk in on someone in the act of murdering my family?

[beefy]

First off, Resecoy, I want to commend your love for others. Jesus says, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Matthew 15:13

By your willingness to sacrifice your life for others by serving 20 years in the military, I commend you. That kind of love is worthy to be praised.

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." John 10:11

You are a good sheperd too, because you are willing to lay down your life for the sheep. I praise you for that. There is no greater love than the love you have shown.

But, I need to point out something to you. Notice how the verse says "lay down his life for his friends," and he does not say "take another's life for his friends."

It is more honorable to sacrifice your life for someone else than it is to take the life of someone else, that's what I am trying to say.

There is indeed a difference between martydom and combat. I will give you my thoughts on what I would do in that situation.

I would suggest that you defend yourself and the ones you love nonviolently. If I were in a situation where my family members might be killed, and there was no reasoning with the attacker, I hope I would put myself between them and the bullet, so that they may have time to escape.

I would also "do good to those who hate you," as Jesus said. Instead of reacting in anger, I would try to relate to the gunman in some way, recognizing that the people who usually rob homes and kill families are those that are living in poverty. If I had financial resources to give them, I would. Not to appease them, but to show them I care. Believe it or not, it is pretty difficult for a gunman who came in your home to loot and plunder the home if the family is giving him their possesions anyway.

Remember how Jesus says, "Bless those who curse you?" I've tried this before. It works wonders. The person cursing you simply does not know how to respond to it. It shows them that you are different, that Christ has worked a miracle in your life. That is the beauty of not "repaying evil for evil, but overcome evil with good."

"Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing." 1 Peter 3:9

"Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." Romans 12:17-21

I can almost gurantee you that if someone comes to raid your home, they will be both hungry and thirsty. Offer them something to eat. Give them something to drink. If you and your family are saved, then you truly have nothing to lose if he refuses and sends you all to heaven.

There is a story you should look up on the internet. It is about a missionary family who went to Africa and the father of the family was killed by the natives. Later, the widow of the missionary sat down to dinner with the man who killed her husband. She let him know that she forgave him, and that Jesus loves him. The native was astonished by this, and after a short while, the entire village repented of their sins and turned to Jesus. The entire village was saved because this woman decided to "love your enemy."

If other people want to send us home to be with the Father, then we should not fear them, for to be with the Father is our heart's desire. Fear God, not man.

"And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Luke 12:4-5

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

Want to see another example of what nonviolence looks like? Here's a good one. It is about how nonviolence saved the Jews from Hitler and his Nazis.

Have you not heard of the Orthodox pastor who saved lives of hundreds of Jews during the Holocaust?

They had the Jews down at the train station, and they had them in a barbed-wire enclosure. It was a rainy, misty night. Out of the darkness, at 11:00, the leader of the Orthodox church of Bulgaria, this seven foot four figure, with a long flowing white beard hanging over his black robe, emerges out of the fog. Can you imagine the drama of this? And then from behind him come about 300 of the members of his congregation. They say his gait, his walk was so fast, that the other men had to run just to keep up with him.

He came to the entrance of the barbed-wire enclosure, and the S.S. guard pointed their machine guns at him and said, "you can't go in there, father." He laughed at them. That's guts. Brushed the machine guns aside, and marched in among the Jews. They gathered around him, seeing what the Christian leader of Bulgaria had to say in their moment of distress, in their moment of need. They were crying, some of them were hysterical, they knew they were heading for Auschwitz, unless something miraculous happened. And something miraculous did.

The Christian leader raised his arms, quoted one verse of scripture, and changed the destiny of the nation. Here's the verse. Quoting from the book of Ruth, he said to the Jews, who were hysterical, knowing they were about to be carted off to Auschwitz to die. "Whither so ever thou goest, I will go. Your people will be my people. Your God will be my God." Ruth 1:16

The Jews cheered. The Christians were outside the barbed-wire enclosure. They cheered. The noise was so great, that people came out of their houses, and started coming down in increasing numbers to the train station. The hundreds grew to thousands.

The S.S. troopers knew there was no way they were going to get away with rounding up these Jews and carrying them off to Auschwitz. The train left without the Jews, and never returned again. And not a single Jew ever died in the concentration camp, if he was a Bulgarian. Because the Church of Jesus Christ boldly stood up and said, "We're not going to kill the enemy, we are going to identify with the suffering, and we will suffer with them." This is Jesus' way.

All the while this pastor obeyed Jesus' commands to "love your enemy," "do good to those that hate you," and to be "as harmless as doves." Matthew 10:16

Will you imitate Jesus and follow His example?

The Russian Christian novelist Leo Tolstoy certainly had it right I think..

His ideas influenced Mahatma Gandhi and these influenced Martin Luther King in his nonviolent strategy to end racial segregation in the US..

Here is what Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi had to say about nonviolence and the misguided efforts of some American Christians to make war upon others:

Martin Luther King

“Several things can be said about nonviolence as a method in bringing about better racial conditions. First, this is not a method of cowardice or stagnant passivity; it does resist. The non-violent resister is just as opposed to the evil he is protesting as the person who used violence.

“A second basic fact about this method is that it does not seek to defeat or humiliate the opponent but to win his friendship and understanding.

“A third fact that characterizes the methods of nonviolence is that the attack is directed toward the forces of evil, rather than the persons caught in the forces. Those of us who struggle against racial injustice must come to see that the basic tension is not between races. The tension is at bottom between justice and injustice, between the forces of light and the forces of darkness.

“A fourth point that must be brought out concerning the method of nonviolence is that this method not only avoids external physical violence, but also internal violence of the spirit. At the center of nonviolence stands the principle of love. We have learned through the grim realities of life and history that hate and violence solve nothing. Violence begets violence; hate begets hate; and toughness begets toughness. It is all a descending spiral, and the end is destruction — for everybody.

“A fifth basic fact about the method of non-violent resistance is that it is based on the conviction that the universe is on the side of justice. It is this deep faith in the future that causes the non-violent resister to accept suffering without retaliation.”

While many blacks considered non-violence cowardly, King’s method of social protest was anything but. Non-violent resistance took enormous emotional discipline and quite a bit of training.

-Imagine marching arm in arm with others, singing “We Shall Overcome” as the police release vicious dogs trained to maim and kill. Imagine being hosed with streams of water forceful enough to break your ribs.
-Imagine sitting at a lunch counter and having a gang spit on you, hit you, and smear food all over you.
Imagine trying to register to vote and having your home bombed, or your wife and children beaten.
-Imagine being arrested, beaten to within an inch of your life, and being thrown into a prison cell built for four with 20 other people. No toilet, just a hole in the ground, rats, and no guarantee of emerging alive.
-Imagine.

No, non-violent resistance took supreme courage and it wasn’t always successful. But it did prick the nation’s conscience and provide graphic images of America’s hypocrisy. “The land of the free” was (and still is) home to some of the most virulent racists outside of Nazi Germany and South Africa. The fact that King was able to convince thousands of Negroes — whose survival depended on allowing their personhood to be stripped from them every day of their lives — to stand up and return love for hatred, is nothing short of miraculous. Especially when the natural human inclination is to fight fire with fire.

It is becuase most Christians believe in particpation in warfare that Gandhi said,

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

"If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all of India would be Christian today."

“If all Christians acted like Christ, the whole world would be Christian.” - Mahatma Gandhi

"I consider Western Christianity in its practical working a negation of Christ’s Christianity."

MAHATMA GANDHI

"An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind."

MAHATMA GANDHI

Gandhi also said, "There are many causes I would die for. There is not a single cause I would kill for."

"I did once seriously think of embracing the Christian faith," Gandhi told Millie Polak, the wife of one of his earliest disciples. "The gentle figure of Christ, so patient, so kind, so loving, so full of forgiveness that he taught his followers not to retailate when abused or struck, but to turn the other cheek, I thought it was a beautiful example of the perfect man..."

"The message of Jesus as I understand it," said Gandhi, "is contained in the Sermon on the Mount unadulterated and taken as a whole... If then I had to face only the Sermon on the Mount and my own interpretation of it, I should not hesitate to say, 'Oh, yes, I am a Christian.' But negatively I can tell you that in my humble opinion, what passes as Christianity is a negation of the Sermon on the Mount... I am speaking of the Christian belief, of Christianity as it is understood in the west."

The reason why I have quoted Gandhi so much is because he pointed out the hypocritical things that Christians have been and are currently doing. It is a shame that he did not live during the time of the early church of Christianity. If he had, I think he would have accepted Christ.

God bless you and keep you Resecoy.

[resecoy]

I know so little about Mahatma Ghandi, according to his personal confession, when was he saved? And when is it right to do what Jesus did in the temple and run people off?

[beefy]

I am afraid Gandhi wasn't saved. He never made any public statement that he believed that Jesus was the son of God. He regarded Him as a great Teacher, "the symbol of nonviolence" as he called him, but nothing more.

But you never know, he may have come to his senses before his assasination. He was seriously considering Christianity, after all. I hope so. He was a good man.

Good questions, by the way.

As far as Jesus driving out the men in the temple with a whip, that is a poor comparison to war and the killing of other people. Jesus was certainly angry, and rightly so. He got physical and he did forcefully chase those men out of His Father's temple.

As far as Jesus actually injuring or hurting others with the whip, there is no mention.

Let me think of a scenario in which I would get physical like Jesus did, but certainly not hurt or kill anyone:

If I came across someone who was trying to rape a young girl, aiming to rape or molest her, I am certain that I would get down on the ground and do my best to pull him off of her, however forcefully. I may get beat up by the man for doing so, but at least the girl would then have the time she needed to escape. And I'm certain she would high-tail it out of there as soon as the man turned his attention to me.

I think that is a good scenario to use force, but certainly not kill anyone. I think Jesus would do the same thing in that particular scenario. What do you think? Surely Jesus would not stand by and watch the young girl get raped?

[resecoy]

I know the Bible says be angry but don't sin. I reckon then it's okay to get upset about things and let that drive us to action. It's our action that was sinful. I wonder if the people in the temple were so intimidated by Jesus that they ran. In legal terms it is called assault. Anytime you make a person physically afraid that they might be bodily harmed it's called assault.

Anyway I believe that Jesus knew no sin, performed no sin.

Also I am sure that non Christians espouse some of the same beliefs of Christianity.

And I can see a heaven on earth type of Utopia where all people love each others thus eliminating war, crime, hate, etc, except the Bible says we aren't born that way and the only way we become that way is through salvation and even so we do not become perfect like Jesus.

[beefy]

You are right. We won't be perfect until we get to heaven.

But until then we are commanded to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

I don't think that killing people falls under the category of what one should do unto others, especially if he doesn't want others to do it unto him.

I think that we should forgive others as we would want them to forgive us, I think we should show mercy to others as we would want them to show mercy to us when we make mistakes, and I think we should love others as we would have others love us. We all want love.

We are born with a sinful nature, and this causes war. Do you remmber what the Bible says about the causes for war?

"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." James 4:1-4